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 marksamuels |
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Posts: 857 (05/26/08 13:59:51) Master Shockliner |
The Intentional Fallacy is a theory about art.Des, That's not what I said. My point was whether texts written in support of the "error" of The Intentional Fallacy were subject to the same method of analysis. Not the theory itself. I believe that textual analysis has been applied to non-fiction, historical accounts and political writings. So it's scarcely confined to art. Mark S. |
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marksamuels |
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Posts: 858 (05/26/08 14:16:07) Master Shockliner |
Actually, I see that I haven't made that distinction entirely clear in post #244, so apologies for that. It's clear in my other posts though.
Doh! Mark S. |
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FinnboyHauty |
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Posts: 3601 (05/26/08 18:36:44) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon |
Those who can, write ... Those who can't, become critics ... (?)
--Rick H |
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lokilokust |
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Posts: 2704 (05/26/08 18:43:19) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon |
'Those who can, write ... Those who can't, become critics ... (?) '
no.
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Laird Barron |
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Posts: 159 (05/26/08 19:06:40) Veteran Shockliner |
"Those who can, write ... Those who can't, become critics ... (?)"
Quick! Somebody tell Haringa to withdraw his story from Datlow's year's best before real writers figure out he's an imposter!
http://imago1.livejournal.com/
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Lorne Dixon |
Joshi on Koontz | ||
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Posts: 624 (05/26/08 19:27:18) Master Shockliner |
Its stunning how self-important the genre can become over the length of a thread. There's room for high-brow art-horror and meat-and-potatoes poverty row
slasher fare in the entertainment sphere. Different audiences have different tastes. Anyone who professes that the low end of horror should not exist should
probably be aware that somewhere someone is reading your favorite work and deeming it to be unworthy of existence. Will the horror genre ever be as respected
as mainstream literary fiction? Of course not. That's why its referred to as a "genre" in the first place. And in sharp contradiction of what
many seem to think, horror is not perceived by mainstream readers or film goers as any less reputable as romance or
westerns. So stop getting your feathers ruffled by academic criticisms of what is primarily a populist, commercial artistic field. Seeking
"respectability" is not just futile- its counterproductive. Create art that matters to you. Read novels that appeal to you. See movies that
intrigue your senses. But don't whine about the works that do not interest you as if they are somehow harmful. That's sort of like suggesting some of
the grade-Z spaghetti westerns of the '70s somehow scare viewers away from The Unforgiven. The real world
doesn't work that way.
The Bride Of Frankenstein is my favorite film. But the original Friday The 13th is pretty damn high on that list, too.
OUT NOW - Zwischenzug: A Pennidreadful Tale in JUST PLAIN BAD : BAD-ASS FAERIES 2 . . .Where Candles Will Not Burn in NOSSA MORTE. . .Gigging The Rawbox in DARK DISTORTIONS VOLUME ONE. . . Boek Van Namen in BOUND FOR EVIL. . . . Beach Moths in STRANGE STORIES OF SAND AND SEA. . . Reins In The Night Season in +THE HORROR LIBRARY+ VOLUME II. . . Pennidreadful in BAD-ASS FAERIES. . . LATER IN 2008 - Her Dead Oceans in +THE HORROR LIBRARY+ VOLUME III -
Screech Owl Serenade in LILITH UNBOUND. . .King James Version (Abridged) in THE ASHEN EYE magazine. . . Dragons Of The Dustbowl in TALES OF MOREAUVIA magazine. . . The Holiest Of Sex Acts in TRAPS. . . Nihil in OUR SHADOWS SPEAK VOLUME TWO. . . 2009 - Kneeling In The
Darkness in DARKNESS ON THE EDGE: Tales Inspired By The Songs Of Bruce
Springsteen. . . Much of Madness, More of Sin in POTTER'S FIELD 3. . .
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Weirdmonger |
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Posts: 424 (05/26/08 23:27:10) Shockliner |
Mark,
There seems to be a dichotomy:- The Intentional Fallacy as a work of philosophy (Aesthetics) or The Intentional Fallacy as work of fiction. I think I'm the first person to muddy the waters here (over the last 40 years) in the hope of fruitful results. So all academic bets are off in my book, as is what people thought or did not think in the past (or intend to) as subsumed by the circular argument (propounded by you) which nothing means anything - which could indeed be true but incredbly fruitless to pursue. :-) Silly Idea - The Baser Pulps - Nemonymous - The Weirdmonger Wheel - Weirdmonger (Prime Book)
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Weirdmonger |
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Posts: 425 (05/26/08 23:40:23) Shockliner |
Weirdmonger wrote:I mean that in the loosest sense of 'raised' within the brainstorming context of our dialogue. ================ P.S. EDIT: Coda 'The Workshop of Filthy Creations' - encountered by me (for the first conscious time) on the Vault
website. I've not known this expression before nor known, until the last few weeks, that it is a quote from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. It now makes
me think of the context of the 'Weirdmonger' book. I find myself able to do this with a certain objectivity
granted both by the passing of time and by my 'crazy' belief in Nemonymity (a mutant form of the high-faluting Aesthetic theory of the Intentional
Fallacy)!
Silly Idea - The Baser Pulps - Nemonymous - The Weirdmonger Wheel - Weirdmonger (Prime Book)
Last Edited By: Weirdmonger
05/27/08 00:13:32.
Edited 2 times.
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Qusoor |
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Posts: 677 (05/27/08 03:20:33) Veteran Shockliner |
rchandler wrote: Well, Joshi is one of the few preeminent critics that takes horror seriously. He is by no means the 'last word,' but the big name critic in horror
field is rather thin. Personally, I look forward to what Jack, Doc Paffenroth and Mr. Mamatas produce for criticism in the next decade.
After Rock-n-Roll lost its edge, that edge became punk. And then Nirvana sold punk to K-Mart. The edge must constantly move, else it becomes dull.
John Goodrich,
My blog: Flawed Diamonds "There's an old Indian proverb that says if you are ever lost, you should sit down and begin to make a curry. Before the water boils for the rice, someone will come out of the forest and tell you you're making it wrong." --Bruce Lierman, "Dutch Mess" |
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rchandler |
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Posts: 223 (05/27/08 03:48:53) Apprentice Shockliner |
He is by no means the 'last word,'Which is why I added the quotation marks, meaning to imply that Joshi writes as if he thinks he's the "last word." Punk was pretty much all edge and little else. Koontz used to be horror. Maybe he'll whip out a new blade and carve out some bloody new territory. But he probably won't. |
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lokilokust |
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Posts: 2706 (05/27/08 04:05:02) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon |
'meaning to imply that Joshi writes as if he thinks he's the "last word."'
having admitted multiple times in this thread that you haven't really read his work, you're really not qualified to make a statement like that, randy. |
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Qusoor |
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Posts: 679 (05/27/08 04:18:11) Veteran Shockliner |
rchandler wrote: Having admitted you haven't read much of his work, I find your opinion unfounded and rude.
John Goodrich,
My blog: Flawed Diamonds "There's an old Indian proverb that says if you are ever lost, you should sit down and begin to make a curry. Before the water boils for the rice, someone will come out of the forest and tell you you're making it wrong." --Bruce Lierman, "Dutch Mess" |
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rchandler |
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Posts: 224 (05/27/08 04:33:46) Apprentice Shockliner |
I've read enough of the man to have an opinion. Both you guys seem sort twitchy about Joshi. Forgive me if I don't feel like joining your cult.
I'll just be the rude guy off in the distance. I won't come near your compound, so I'm not really a threat.
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rchandler |
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Posts: 225 (05/27/08 04:37:58) Apprentice Shockliner |
By the way, how do we know Joshi has read enough of Koontz's work to have a valid opinion? How many books exactly? You don't know. But his words are
golden. Apparently.
Last Edited By: rchandler
05/27/08 04:40:45.
Edited 1 times.
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Qusoor |
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Posts: 680 (05/27/08 04:42:18) Veteran Shockliner |
rchandler wrote: You know the anti-intellectualism that was decried earlier in this thread? This is a good example of it.
John Goodrich,
My blog: Flawed Diamonds "There's an old Indian proverb that says if you are ever lost, you should sit down and begin to make a curry. Before the water boils for the rice, someone will come out of the forest and tell you you're making it wrong." --Bruce Lierman, "Dutch Mess" |
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Qusoor |
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Posts: 681 (05/27/08 04:45:28) Veteran Shockliner |
rchandler wrote: In your opinion, how many books would it take to form a valid opinion of him? And is that number fewer than the number of Joshi books that you have read, from which you have formed an opinion of him?
John Goodrich,
My blog: Flawed Diamonds "There's an old Indian proverb that says if you are ever lost, you should sit down and begin to make a curry. Before the water boils for the rice, someone will come out of the forest and tell you you're making it wrong." --Bruce Lierman, "Dutch Mess" |
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rchandler |
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Posts: 226 (05/27/08 05:44:08) Apprentice Shockliner |
Why do you waste your time on an anti-intellectual like me? Oh well, since you asked...
I read Joshi's Selected Writings at the man's own website, and I've read over the years various intros he did. I don't claim to be an authority on the man. But reading his God's Defenders: What They Believe and Why They Are Wrong was enough for me to see that he is what I would call a pseudo-intellectual. His assumptions about Darwinism are wrong and as it's one of the foundations of his main argument, his conclusions are ill-conceived. But he states them as if they are carved in proverbial stone. Why would I want to read books by someone with such obviously faulty logic? [I'm just a guy with an opinion. Unlike Joshi, I don't claim to be a serious literary critc.]
Last Edited By: rchandler
05/27/08 05:46:48.
Edited 1 times.
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Qusoor |
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Posts: 682 (05/27/08 05:48:56) Veteran Shockliner |
rchandler wrote: I find people with different opinions than mine interesting. I like finding out the bases of their opinions, and how the foundation of that opinion comes
out in argument.
John Goodrich,
My blog: Flawed Diamonds "There's an old Indian proverb that says if you are ever lost, you should sit down and begin to make a curry. Before the water boils for the rice, someone will come out of the forest and tell you you're making it wrong." --Bruce Lierman, "Dutch Mess" |
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rchandler |
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Posts: 227 (05/27/08 06:14:27) Apprentice Shockliner |
I failed to answer your other question. I would expect that for a critic to issue the kind of statement Joshi did about Koontz (virtually trashing all his
work), he would've read all of his books up to that point. Seems to me that is what a responsible critic would do. Otherwise, the critic couldn't be
one hundred percent certain that he hadn't missed an uncharacteristic work of brilliance.
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Nemonymous |
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Posts: 541 (05/27/08 06:16:38) Veteran Shockliner |
No critic can be completist, I feel. He has to feel his way, use his critical instincts.
But I'm no critic. I'm only guessing. Silly Idea - The Baser Pulps
- Nemonymous - The Weirdmonger Wheel - Weirdmonger (Prime Book)
There are many worse ways of life than contented failure - Robert Aickman |
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