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John Morrissey |
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I still have to wonder who Joshi is and until he starts putting money in my pocket I couldn't give half a fuck who he is .I bought ODD HOURS. As far as
Jackula goes well you can just leave it at that.
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marksamuels |
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Well, the last horror boom produced hundreds of fast-paced, basic prose-style, familiar and easy to assimilate plot and narrative structures along the lines of
what the anti-"elitists" wanted. And the end result? A total collapse in readership. Where did all those readers from the 1980s go? Why were they
turned off? Could it be, just possibly, that they cottoned on to the fact that whatever quality had been there before had been formularised, degraded,
regurgitated, and that the publishers believed any dreck with the word "horror" in the title was good enough to be pushed on them.
It was a massive underestimation of the reading public's intelligence. And that's why horror's in the mess it is. Mark S. |
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HW Renfield |
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DSolow |
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Is TODP still saying things that upset the Shockliners?
I thought that all ended over a year ago when the gang of 40 rode off into the sunset (and many have never been heard from again) |
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HW Renfield |
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It appears the remaining troublemaking TODPers are edumacated sonsofbitches that use big words to confuse and coufound those being made fun of (thus you never
hear anything about it). That or your hearing aid's battery is dead again, old man.
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Shocklines |
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marksamuels wrote: I think that's an oversimplification. All genres go through periods of different subgenres being more popular. For instance, in horror movies, I'm happy to see that the gorno trend is not doing as well, outside of Saw (and we'll see if Saw V does well) -- and seeing an R-rated film like THE STRANGERS do great is a fantastic indication that quiet R-rated horror could be back. (We'll see). But that's just my personal taste. During the horror boom, there was also hundreds of brilliant horror novels that went out of print just as fast as the ones you're thinking about. I still am shocked that for the last decade Thomas Tryon's THE OTHER -- which sold what? millions of copies? was out of print until just now, when Centipede Press brought it back. (A novel of pure genius, by the way). It was during that boom that I found a lot of horror authors that still rank among my favorites, including Michael Blumlein, Alan Ryan, Michael Green (woo-hoo -- "The JimJams"), Thomas Disch, etc -- authors that many consider to be quite literary.I don't think you're ever going to pinpoint a single reason for why tastes change over time. And I actually don't think anti-"elitists" exist, at least not in the capacity you're talking about. There's countless readers like me -- and like the person who started this thread -- that can equally enjoy a Dean Koontz, Jonathan Carroll, John Saul, Stephen King, Thomas Disch, Guy N. Smith, Graham Joyce, etc. Just like this weekend I dug both "The Strangers" and Stuart Gordon's sick, gory, hilarious "Stuck." Not everything is one or the other. And I honestly am not sure I know of any readers who ONLY prefer fast-paced easy-to-assimilate novels.
Shocklines.com -- your one-stop shop for hell on earth
Last Edited By: Shocklines
06/02/08 14:12:06.
Edited 2 times.
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JerrodBalzer |
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Wow, I made a sensible comment that didn't insult anyone and it kept to the thread's subject, and yet it was snipped. Keep the sideburns and please
donate it to Locks of Love. Perhaps it will help those less fortunate than myself.
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Shocklines |
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I think your comment was either quoting a post that did get snipped or was in direct reference to it. If not, feel free to repost.
Shocklines.com -- your one-stop shop for hell on earth
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HW Renfield |
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and getting back to the topic at hand (whatever that may be), I have just finished re-reading my 4th Laymon novel in the last two weeks. Laymon is a guilty
pleasure of mine, and I thoroughly enjoy nearly his entire body of work. However, I feel pretty safe in saying there is nothing intellectually stimulating in
the vast majority of his novels, but that does nothing to diminish the enjoyment of reading said novels.
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marksamuels |
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During the horror boom, there was also hundreds of brilliant horror novels that went out of print just as fast as the ones you're thinking about. I still am shocked that for the last decade Thomas Tryon's THE OTHER -- which sold what? millions of copies? was out of print until just now, when Centipede Press brought it back. (A novel of pure genius, by the way). It was during that boom that I found a lot of horror authors that still rank among my favorites, including Michael Blumlein, Alan Ryan, Michael Green (woo-hoo -- "The JimJams"), Thomas Disch, etc -- authors that many consider to be quite literary.I've got a challenge for you Matt. List at least 100 horror novels from the 1980s that are, in your view, "brilliant". I don't doubt that there are possibly two dozen that might fall into that category, but hundreds? Surely not. Thomas Tryon, by the way, comes in for very high praise indeed from Joshi in his book The Modern Weird Tale. We'll have to agree to disagree about my view being an "oversimplification", as you might imagine Mark S. |
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JerrodBalzer |
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Ah, then I'll repost what I said minus the response to the comment I'd quoted.
If someone proudly proclaimed being a fan of books purely for entertainment purposes instead of intellectual stimulation, then I don't see why there would be offense to being called an "anti-intellectual fanboy." Is that not what he was admitting to? Personally, I like both. I love reading something that I can learn from or at least get a different perspective from. But other times I'm in the mood for something that's just fun. It's just like sometimes I enjoy documentaries, while other times a cheesy horror flick. But if I only read for entertainment, hence not (or "anti") for intellectual purposes, then I would be a fan of such material. |
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Michael Johnston |
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Regarding the 1980s horror boom and bust, literary vs genre crap, and the current state of horror - it's worth having a(nother) read of Paula Guran's
2002 Locus piece, "Tribal Stand". I know a lot of people can't
be arsed following links, so here's a flavour to tempt you!
"...bottom-feeders...", "...scum...", "...mud-whiners...", "...incestuous dance of parochialism...", "...pointless, derivative crap...", "...excreting another novel-length waste of time...", "...cadre of increasingly desperate writers digging, filling, and stocking their own brackish inland swamp of literary incest", "Don't worry about integrity, it's just another promotional opportunity for yourself, and the chum produced by your chums", "And don't forget to scoff at any effort by the knowledgeable to seek out and reward excellence - deem them snobs and denigrate them whenever possible". http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Commentary/Guran09_Standard.html |
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njhorror |
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I think the weird criticism of TODP was uncalled for.
People over there (including me) don't agree with each other! So, don't feel singled out . . . in fact, feel free to express your opinions. |
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Lorne Dixon |
Re: I'm too stupid to read horror. | ||
I've got a challenge for you Matt. List at least 100 horror novels from the 1980s that are, in your view, "brilliant". I don't doubt that there are possibly two dozen that might fall into that category, but hundreds? Surely not.Matt was just making a broad point. Does every post have to be taken apart word for word and each word autopsied? A civil, thoughtful argument doesn't work that way. But... whatever. To the greater point, can anyone here seriously name ANY decade that produced hundreds of "brilliant" horror novels? Get back to me on that one. Point is, horror can have serious literary value, yes, but is first and foremost genre fiction. It is created for a specific audience with specific expectations. It is VERY analogous to rock and roll- there are exceptional, brilliant acts out there producing groundswelling art. But the Classical listener is only going to hear noise. Horror lit criticism resembles a Radiohead review in Spin or Rolling Stone- there's a sense of self-importance there that's completely justified to those who already follow the faith. For the average Dead Kennedys fan, though, Radiohead is pretentious college rock. That doesn't mean the Radiohead fans are right, or that the DK listeners are, either. It simply means that since we're already grading on a curve, the value of literary criticism in the genre is bound to be hugely subjective.
OUT NOW - Zwischenzug: A Pennidreadful Tale in JUST PLAIN BAD : BAD-ASS FAERIES 2 . . .Where Candles Will Not Burn in NOSSA MORTE. . .Gigging The Rawbox in DARK DISTORTIONS VOLUME ONE. . . Boek Van Namen in BOUND FOR EVIL. . . . Beach Moths in STRANGE STORIES OF SAND AND SEA. . . Reins In The Night Season in +THE HORROR LIBRARY+ VOLUME II. . . Pennidreadful in BAD-ASS FAERIES. . . LATER IN 2008 - Her Dead Oceans in +THE HORROR LIBRARY+ VOLUME III -
Screech Owl Serenade in LILITH UNBOUND. . .King James Version (Abridged) in THE ASHEN EYE magazine. . . Dragons Of The Dustbowl in TALES OF MOREAUVIA magazine. . . The Holiest Of Sex Acts in TRAPS. . . Nihil in OUR SHADOWS SPEAK VOLUME TWO. . . 2009 - Kneeling In The
Darkness in DARKNESS ON THE EDGE: Tales Inspired By The Songs Of Bruce
Springsteen. . . Much of Madness, More of Sin in POTTER'S FIELD 3. . .
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Jackula M Lit |
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Well, isn't this a barrel of laughs. I'll offer the simplest solution first, by defining what I said. From Merriam-Webster:
anti-intellectual--opposing or hostile to intellectuals or to an intellectual view or approach. intellectual: given to study, reflection, and speculation b: engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect. intellect: the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge b: the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed. Any questions on definitions? Next, here's what Jason said (different from his characterization of his statement that "it was okay to read purely for escapist entertainment and nothing more," which no one in fact denied.) : I'm happy to admit that I don't know the first thing about "literary criticism". I don't know much about any of the elitist pursuits. All I know is what I like and what I don't like. I'm not particularly interested in dissecting a good book to understand why I liked it, or being taught how to appreciate a book I didn't like on first reading. Life is just too short for that kind of anal activity. So, Jason is "happy" not to know anything about lit. crit. He's "not interested" in understanding what makes a good book "good" (whatever this might mean, and this is why serious literary critics tend to avoid words like "good" in their analysis of books) or learning to appreciate things he doesn't already appreciate on cursory inspection. That is the definition of anti-intellectual in a nutshell. In fact, the first definition offered at onelook.com (a meta-dictionary) is "smug and ignorant and indifferent or hostile to artistic and cultural values." So it seems from Jason's quoted text above that he is smugly ignorant of literary criticism and hostile to artistic values that others profess. Given that, was anything I said inaccurate? Next step, let's take a look at Jason's allegations, and see how many might be valid: The thread ran for many pages and anyone could have responded directly to me with the reasonable expectation that I would see it. Instead, Jackula chose to single me out for ridicule over at TODP without any reason to suspect that I would read his post. What a guy! (BTW, I'm well aware that making fun of other people's opinions is TODP's raison d'etre.) Firstly, the thread did indeed run for many pages, so kudos to Jason for starting with a fact. If only he'd stuck with them. Unfortunately, I did in fact in that thread make the charge of anti-intellectualism. He didn't happen to note it, but Randy Chandler did, and while I don't particularly agree with Randy's approach to lit crit, he was interested in knowing something he didn't know, and I responded to him. The word "fanboy," by the way, was introduced into the conversation by Randy and continued with by Barbara on that long thread. Commonly speaking, a fanboy is someone emotionally attached and devoted to some person or object who repudiates any criticism of the object of affection. I, for instance, am a Peter O'Toole fanboy to a degree. Regardless of the piece of crap film O'Toole appears in, I will devotedly watch his performance and admire it regardless of the morass of suck that might surround him. I've watched Creator six times and can quote from it on command. However, I am also aware that Creator is a nearly unmitigated piece of shit of a film. That's OK. I still love it. I love Peter O'Toole in it. See, one can simultaneously like something and recognize that it's not good (see Nick Mamatas's post earlier in this thread). As to why I posted the comment over at TODP...well, there are several reasons. One is that I'm well aware lots of people who read Shocklines also read that board, though they'd never own up to it, and the conversation can be freer there than here. So a comment that Matt might snip or complain about as, perhaps, a personal attack (though I don't see how my accurate characterization of Jason can be construed as an attack) can stand and be discussed or refuted in open debate. Jason could easily have addressed his issues there without any chance of the thread being locked or "pruned." Additionally, the original thread got off track into other subjects (evolution, in particular), and I was more interested in seeing how other people--people who don't post over here for a variety of reasons--thought on the subject. Jackula (You see what he's done there? He's made his own name sound like Dracula, just so that you can tell he really is a horror aficionado. Damn that's clever.) said that I am a typical "anti-intelligent fanboy", and judging by the number of people stating that literary criticism is the only way to judge whether a book is good or not, and indeed, from a subsequent post at upfromtheunderground.com, it's clear that my kind of reader is not welcome in some circles of the horror community. Apparently, it's people like me who have prevented horror from achieving the respectability it deserves. The first part of this is Jason failing to understand a)
irony, and b) self-deprecation regarding my choice of member name. Also, nearly anyone here with about five seconds of work can figure/find out who I am if
he or she doesn't know already. The second part of this is failure to understand irony and take a joke posted at a satirical website. Hyperbole and
reductionism are both common tools used in the construction of satire.
So, to all the publishers like BLP, BMB, CD, Delirium, Donald Grant, Earthling, Necro, NEP, Night Shade, PS and Sub Press who I have spent tens of thousands of dollars with over the past 15 years or so, I apologise for assuming that my money was welcome. If you had only know the kind of mindless reader I am, I'm sure you would have preferred to sell your books to a much more intelligent reader, and probably would have even been prepared to sell them at a loss just for the peace of mind that a more suitable reader was getting them. I don't even know what to make of this. Again, never
was the argument put forth that people are wrong for reading for pleasure or escape. No one claimed that anyone had to engage in literary criticism.
However the opposite, that horror novels should only be read as escape and that reading for deeper meaning was "elitist,"
"anal," and a waste of time was made multiple times in the Joshi thread. Also, literary critics were referred to as both parasites and failed
writers. So, Jason here is arguing against something that didn't even happen.
Having said that, in the thread on TODP it also states that one of the "skills" of literary criticism is identifying themes in the book of which even the author was unaware. So, perhaps you aren't best placed to assess the suitability of potential readers. To be safe, I think you should check with Jackula. I'm sure he will have a vetting process to check their worthiness. Again, no such statement was made. What was discussed,
rather, was the 60-year-old concept of the intentional fallacy (also discussed on the original thread here). The above quote from Jason shows a willful
disregard for the facts and a willful misreading of the posts in question. It's so refreshing to see that ad hominem attacks like this are fine by Matt
as long as they don't target anyone he actually likes. I'd rather it continue to stand than get edited, though, just so we all know the levelness of
the playing field.
PS. It's obvious why a great author like Richard Laymon had to look abroad to the UK and Australia to establish his career, if narrow-minded people like Jackula are influencing who gets published in the US. Oh, and it would have been interesting if anyone had bothered to refute Joshi's initial statement that started the whole thread by, you know, actually providing some evidence to the contrary in terms of the quality of his prose, the depth of his characterization, or even the ingenuity of his plots. A few people named a couple of "good" Koontz books in that thread without really defining what they meant by "good" and whether that in any way spoke to the criteria Joshi used or at least to some aesthetic rule set. Carry on. Jack Edited to remove an unintentional smiley and bit of repetitive phrasing.
I tried jogging once, but the ice kept spilling out of my tumbler. Touch A Dark Wolf! Touch it!
Last Edited By: Jackula M Lit
06/02/08 16:40:42.
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David Wilbanks |
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I'm too smart to read horror, but too dumb to stop.
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kelliwithani1982 |
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Laymon fan--you are a supreme jackass.
my myspace has returned. http://www.myspace.com/84772530
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nebuly |
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Point is, horror can have serious literary value, yes, but is first and foremost genre fiction. It is created for a specific audience with specific expectations. This is a large part of what keeps horror as 'just' genre fiction in the minds of a lot of readers. 'All right, you serious literary types, move along, it's just genre fiction, nothing to interest you here.' Good writing is good writing, and we should be looking for it - indeed, expecting it - everywhere: not just in the works of McEwan or Murakami or McCarthy or Oates or Rushdie, but everywhere. If a reader goes into a genre - any genre - and throws his or her expectation or desire for serious literary value out the door, because, well, it's 'just' genre, then he or she deserves crappy writing. And they'll get it, because when there's little incentive for a lot of writers to strive for excellence, they won't, pandering to the lowest common denominator being so much easier. Sure, read the popcorn books; they can be a lot of fun. But when others come in and say they're popcorn books, don't get all huffy and defensive and hide behind the 'it's just genre fiction' excuse.
Last Edited By: nebuly
06/02/08 17:18:37.
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Donn Gash |
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I like mustard.
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nkalanta |
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rbmoney wrote: The Door to December was originally released in 1985 (under the pseudonym Richard Paige) and re-released in 2002. The Bad Place was terrific but my
favorite will always be Lightning.
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