I'm too stupid to read horror.

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BryonMorrigan		#101	[-]
Posts: 263 (06/03/08 06:15:31) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	LeatherZebra wrote: Tolkien is the classic example of "good" fantasy. But all that "good" in the world didn't help me get through either "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" or "The Hobbit" and think that either one was of any literary merit. You're dead to me, Michele... :::::::wink:::::::::
marksamuels		#102	[-]
Posts: 883 (06/03/08 06:33:47) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	But, if your view is correct Matt, wouldn't it be the case that there would have been no market implosion in the horror market during the 1990s? How do you account for this event? You mentioned a change in the reading public's taste and I made a claim for an underestimation of their intelligence. Why should their taste change so dramatically and decisively? There has to be a cause. I've identified, for my part, a significant drop in overall literary standards. What caused the mass-market flight from horror fiction, in your opinion? Mark S.
Shocklines		#103	[-]
Posts: 28166 (06/03/08 06:47:12) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	marksamuels wrote: But, if your view is correct Matt, wouldn't it be the case that there would have been no market implosion in the horror market during the 1990s? How do you account for this event? You mentioned a change in the reading public's taste and I made a claim for an underestimation of their intelligence. Why should their taste change so dramatically and decisively? There has to be a cause. I've identified, for my part, a significant drop in overall literary standards. What caused the mass-market flight from horror fiction, in your opinion? Mark S. What I'm suggesting is that a LOT of factors contribute to any market implosion. I think pointing to one type of book is an oversimplification. Shocklines.com -- your one-stop shop for hell on earth
FinnboyHauty		#104	[-]
Posts: 3606 (06/03/08 07:15:42) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm not "anti-intellectual," but I am "anti-pedantic." --Rick H
Ellen Datlow		#105	[-]
Posts: 868 (06/03/08 07:16:07) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	>>>of course, there were exceptions when it comes to people like Tryon when it comes to authors producing work in that period>> Slight correction: Tryon's two best novels, The Other and Harvest Home were published in the early 70s not the 80s. Ellen Datlow Editor www.datlow.com
marksamuels		#106	[-]
Posts: 885 (06/03/08 07:22:55) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	>>>of course, there were exceptions when it comes to people like Tryon when it comes to authors producing work in that period>> Slight correction: Tryon's two best novels, The Other and Harvest Home were published in the early 70s not the 80s. Damn! Not only did I get that wrong but I also used "when it comes" twice in close succession. As Joshi would say "he's not as clever as he thinks he is" (he uses that phrase a lot) Mark S.
Shocklines		#107	[-]
Posts: 28171 (06/03/08 07:25:31) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I know Tryon was in the 70s. I was more or less using him as an example that even the most brilliant fiction goes out of print. Shocklines.com -- your one-stop shop for hell on earth
marksamuels		#108	[-]
Posts: 886 (06/03/08 07:26:45) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ellen was pointing out my mistake, Matt. Mark S.
scottstandridge		#109	[-]
Posts: 49 (06/03/08 07:47:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Waaaaay back (at least 3 or 4 pages) someone said: >>There should be a dating agency for books and readers. As a matter of fact, there are two such agencies: reviewers and critics. Managing Editor City Slab Magazine [website] [blog] Personal Blog: Defined By Negatives Movie Blog: Mad Mad Mad Mad Movies Poetry Blog: The Sonnet Project
Nemonymous		#110	[-]
Posts: 601 (06/03/08 07:59:17) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I was thinking more of a series of introductions with the book itself deciding (or not) on the reader as well as the reader deciding (or not) on the book. Silly Idea - The Baser Pulps - Nemonymous - The Weirdmonger Wheel - Weirdmonger (Prime Book) The Top Tier Shockliner Demon previously known as DF Lewis There are many worse ways of life than contented failure - Robert Aickman
nkalanta	This is supposed to be funny!!!	#111	[-]
Posts: 12527 (06/03/08 08:00:50) Queen of Horror World Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	OK - my sick sense of humor at work here - if I offend someone, I'm sorry. For some reason this cartoon made me think of this thread.
Shocklines		#112	[-]
Posts: 28173 (06/03/08 10:06:12) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Shocklines wrote: I know Tryon was in the 70s. I was more or less using him as an example that even the most brilliant fiction goes out of print. Sorry. I was thinking I should have been clearer myself when I referenced him in the first place. Shocklines.com -- your one-stop shop for hell on earth
LeatherZebra		#113	[-]
Posts: 566 (06/03/08 10:42:16) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You're dead to me, Michele... :::::::wink::::::::: So then I can move into the manor asap and start doing ghostly things like making the walls bleed and pushing you down the stairs? :P Webpage Blog My Book Review Blog
pegleg666		#114	[-]
Posts: 623 (06/03/08 10:57:46) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I consider myself a reader who enjoys a "well-told tale." Sometimes it counts as "literature" and sometimes as crap. Sometimes I read for various internal justifications that are aliterate. But I buy lots of books, and hope, in some small way, I'm contributing to the growth of horror. I know about lit crit, having been an English major at an Ivy league school. One day I suggested asking WH Auden about what he meant by something-or-other (he lived in the neighborhood, so it wasn't so far-fetched), and I was told basically, that "you don't do that; the writer doesn't always know what he is saying." Really? Most of you are writers. Is that true, that you aren't aware of what you're saying? Because it would be very strange that artists DO know what they are creating, but writers don't. My wife, who is an artist, always explains fine art--paintings--to me when we visit galleries. She tells me about the artist, that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing and all the historical, etc. influences that "informed" a painting. I'm sure all of you who are writers know your influences, too. I think critics sometimes try to minimize the knowledge of the writer, so I'll close with one of my favorite works, Pope's Essay on Criticism (http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/essay.html). I especially commend you to the first four lines of the stanza beginning "Some have at first for Wits, then Poets past". Pegleg (another lover of Laymon, and Ketchum and Lee, the "Trilogy of Terror")
TMWright.gorezone		#115	[-]
Posts: 174 (06/03/08 11:22:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Is that true, that you aren't aware of what you're saying? Let's amend that a bit: "Is that true, that you aren't always aware of what you're writing?" Sure. Sometimes a phrase or a single word or a whole sentence or two pops into my head from...wherever, and I run with it, see where it's going to take me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of writers do the same thing. T.M.
BryonMorrigan		#116	[-]
Posts: 265 (06/03/08 11:24:45) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	LeatherZebra wrote: You're dead to me, Michele... :::::::wink::::::::: So then I can move into the manor asap and start doing ghostly things like making the walls bleed and pushing you down the stairs? :P Ghosts, schmosts! Your feeble attempts to haunt Morrigan Manor will end in failure! You have been forewarned! Good day, Madam! Cave Inimicum!
Ellen Datlow		#117	[-]
Posts: 870 (06/03/08 11:44:17) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	marksamuels wrote: Ellen was pointing out my mistake, Matt. Mark S. Yup! Ellen Datlow Editor www.datlow.com
ADaRkFascination		#118	[-]
Posts: 5074 (06/03/08 12:06:50) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"I'm not "anti-intellectual," but I am "anti-pedantic." Coolness! __________________ Rain falls on everyone - lightening strikes some. ~Al~
One More Justin Case		#119	[-]
Posts: 1233 (06/03/08 12:19:24) Shocklineraholic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	marksamuels wrote: But we're talking about an analysis of a whole swathe of horror novels published in the 1980s. It's simply not the case that the publishers were slipping vast numbers of works of intrinsic literary merit into print under the umbrella of "horror". What they were doing was publishing vast numbers of works that were specifically written at that time in order to correspond with a publisher-driven demand for formulaic writing. I simply don't agree. They may have been publishing work to correspond with a demand for horror fiction, but I don't see any evidence that any publisher said "we must publish formulaic writing." I don't think those other books I mentioned were "slipped in" either. They were published under the umbrella of horror because they ARE horror, AND they have intrinsic literary merit. I don't think they were trying to put one over on anyone -- I think they were publishing horror fiction they thought would sell. In some cases they thought it would sell to a crowd looking for fast-moving, fun, twisted fiction that doesn't linger long after it's done. In other cases, they thought it would play to a more literary crowd, garner strong reviews, and become a sleeper hit. And some fall way in between, but were undoubtedly published because someone thought it was a great book. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if you really went back to the 80s and started digging deep into what was published back then, you'd be surprised at how many of those books are NOT cookie-cutter fiction. I think as more and more time passes, people tend to generalize about that period while forgetting that so much amazing horror came of that period as well. Just poking my head in to state I totally agree with Matt on this one. Again, one of my original premises from the Joshi / Koontz post was the idea that how would anyone know or even care about literary merit if it first were not popular enough to even get exposure. Popularity does not negate literary merit (which is subjective as all hell) and both certainly not mutually exclusive to each other - contrary to popular belief. Just wanted to get that in before we get too much into "Intentional Fallacy" , Structuralism, McGuffery Readers and politicises... process X equals.. etc, etc.. (yeah Mark S. - I'm talking about you ) Phil __________________ Support Small Press Bookstores United Last Edited By: One More Justin Case 06/03/08 12:24:55. Edited 1 times.
Allyson Bird		#120	[-]
Posts: 1474 (06/03/08 12:24:19) Shocklineraholic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sure. Sometimes a phrase or a single word or a whole sentence or two pops into my head from...wherever, and I run with it, see where it's going to take me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of writers do the same thing. T.M. So very, very true.

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