Also, when did it become okay to produce such a show and dress it up has "entertainment"?
Anyway, Charlie Brooker reviews it far more succinctly than me, and this clip too echoes my own view.
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pendragon |
To Catch a Predator |
Lead | |
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I've not seen this show, but friends of mine have told me about, and so I logged onto Youtube and found several clips, such as this. In all fairness, paedophiles deserve no mercy, but let's look upon this show objectively
and logically: when did entrapment become legal practice, not to mention coercian between the police, media and some anti-paedophile internet group?
Also, when did it become okay to produce such a show and dress it up has "entertainment"? Anyway, Charlie Brooker reviews it far more succinctly than me, and this clip too echoes my own view. |
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Wandaful Wench |
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HOLY FUCK............
This stuff is actually allowed on TV??? ALL pedophiles should be fucking SHOT............ In the nuts Stupid c***s........... (er that's a BOO word Matt)... heh FUCK - is TV so bad that they have to put that sorta crap on??? HOW the fuck do they give these people air time.....
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07/24/08 11:29:45.
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adamantmusic |
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I think it is on to show it exists and to help educate people to keep their kids safer online. I haven't seen it, but I have heard of all sorts of people
from all sorts of walks of life have been on it including (per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Catch_a_Predator) : a Nickelodeon employee, a Rabbi, a high school teacher, a 6th grade Catholic school teacher (surprise!), Military officers, a school bus driver, a Medical Doctor, a Police cadet, the district attorney who killed himself becuase of the show, and many more "shockers", a New York City firefighter, and more. They use sites like MySpace, various message boards, games with chat (Halo, World of Warcraft), and children's chat rooms. |
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AdamB |
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adamantmusic wrote:
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Sabledrake |
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Never seen the show, but I've seen the South Park episode about it, does that count?
-- C. |
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RN Lee |
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You know, like To Catch A Physical Assaulter (wherein we film someone getting continuously and progressively more annoyed by someone until they lash out, and then we arrest them and hoot and holler, 'We did it! We caught a criminal! The streets are safer, and we are also educating people on how to avoid these physical abusers!'). My favorite's got to be the guy who wouldn't bite after flirting with the erzatz teen girl online, even after the hired actress pulled all the "Aw, c'mon, what are you, a pussy?" crap they do over the phone when guys won't come over to the house. So they just went over to his house instead - to accuse him, I guess, of walking up to the edge of committing a pretty wretched crime and then deciding not to, which, uh...I would think would be a good thing - and he killed himself. One less American with a functioning conscience on the streets, and at the hands of people who pretty apparently don't have any conscience at all. YAY, WE ALL WIN. |
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AdamB |
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RN Lee wrote: Jesus, I hadn't heard about that (other than the mention of someone committing suicide earlier in this thread). I don't think the programme airs over here in the UK, at least not on any of the channels we have, so the only exposure to the show I've had is watching clips on Youtube with one of my brothers and alternating between laughing at the show and being kind of creeped out by the whole affair. But yeah, that sounds pretty awful. |
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BrandonFord81 |
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I don't really consider the show "entrapment." I mean, the pedophiles that are having explicit exchanges with undercover officers would be
having these conversations with actual youths had the sting operation not existed. I definitely agree that this show is meant to educate. Parents these days
have no idea what their children are doing on the Internet. Because of shows like this, they now know that they should keep a better watch on their children
when they're surfing the web. In all honesty, I think shows like this can save lives. So, kudos to Dateline and Chris Hansen.
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RN Lee |
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Actually, I got things mixed up with another of their exploits, and we're talking about the same case - Louis Conradt, the Texas prosecutor. The pretend
girl was, in fact, a pretend boy. The facts are pretty much the same.
And here's where we run into my biggest problem with "To Catch a Predator:" it exploits real concerns to unhelpful ends. If a freaking prosecutor was, in fact, hanging around online trying to sexy-chat minors, that's an extremely serious problem beyond the already serious problem of adults trying to interfere in the development of their sexually-mature-but-otherwise-not fellow citizens. That's the kind of problem that, once exposed, undoes unrelated and solid court cases already made, maybe, and puts real villains out on the streets again. The full power of law enforcement should be applied there, for all kinds of reasons beyond the initial concern for minor safety and thwarting criminally bad behavior. But that's not what happened. Instead, this guy was caught accidentally in a quasi-legal constitutional runaround by law enforcement in conjunction with a self-appointed and aggrandizing vigilante group for purposes of entertainment. Because that's all "To Catch a Predator" is, really, some of the sickest kind of popular entertainment our increasingly fearful nation indulges in, these days. It demonstrably helps no one: it's not, as though, any of these men were intercepted in the process of actually committing a crime involving a minor. Their intent is all that matters, and we can argue all day whether or not criminalizing intent helps anything or not, but that's well beside the point: no one has been rescued from harm, in any sense, and no actual harm has been balanced by justice. Call me crazy, but it's my understanding that law enforcement is supposed to prevent harm when they can and investigate it when it has happened, in service of prosecution, not redirect their time and energy into goading and cajoling those who might do harm into actively expressing intent to do so. As I said, I understand that this is a real problem, and it has been so for as long as I've been alive, anyway. I knew girls when I was younger who succumbed to the attention of the what-the-hell's-wrong-with-them? older guys who've been buzzing around high schools since high school was invented, I have to imagine. This was overwhelmingly not a positive thing for them, in my observation. I knew a guy at my last job who had to step in and call the cops up in New England because his fourteen-year-old daughter had "fallen in love" with a twenty-two-year-old guy up there and he was trying to talk her into sneaking up there to see him. So, yeah really, I know that shit happens. But here's what I also know about that guy: he's not a very good husband or father. His wife is mentally ill, and has been for several years, and rather than giving her the support she needs or being honest about his inability to do so in any manner, he's put his attention and energy into a series of affairs with younger women at work. He's in the middle of one, now, with someone close to me. (I have not been able, in the limited sense you can even try to do so, to talk any fucking sense into her about this. Nobody has. She's an adult, though, and she'll have to hit that hard wall on her own. We tried.) His now-teenage children are largely neglected, left to the care of a mad woman while he "stays late at work" and "goes to school." In other words, the real wonder here is that any of this was even caught in time, and that his daughter didn't end up on Nancy Grace's show for weeks on end. I have a couple of teenagers, myself, and my daughter is about to start high school, so this is a real concern to my ex and me, these days. To that end, we've imposed restrictions on both our kids' time spent online over the years that we've relaxed as they've gotten older, but I'm not that relaxed. I do know how to ferret out shit about people online they'd like to hide, and I do get emails from my kids, cc'd to their friends on occasion, and periodically, I use the addresses and screen names to sweep the predictable spaces in which either could potentially put themselves in harm's way. I can't do a lot, practically, from across the country, but that I can do, and then I send my ex an email saying "It's all good." And it always is all good, and I expected it to be, because way beyond imposing limits and checking up on the kids to make sure they aren't broken, we have a good handle on how our kids are developing and what they're doing at any given point, because we've made an effort to do so since they were born. Again, I'm divorced, I live in another state, and it's my ex-wife who has to do the day-to-day monitoring and maintenance, alone, and she does that, consistently. I have to rely on her reports and step in when I can and it's advisable - as when my son was getting into fights at school, so I suggested he take a year off, take classes online, and come live with me and Evonne. And he did, and it worked. He hasn't been in a fight since he returned to school, and he's starting college part-time this fall at the same time he starts junior year. Not to toot our own horns, since all of this just seems like Bonehead Parenting 101 to me, but yay us, I guess. My children are growing into their own full personhood, now, and increasingly beyond our efforts as parents. In both our estimation, though, our efforts from the beginning have paid off. We have kids who make pretty good choices, most of the time. We have kids we can trust. Anything can happen, I suppose, but I never expect, when I go digging, to find a MySpace page with my daughter on it getting drunk and making out with her friends and flashing her boobs, for instance. That's just not the young woman we raised, or whom we know and talk to all the time. And really, that's what people can do to prevent this sort of thing: pay attention to their kids, for real, not some bullshit commercial hype machine dedicated to exploiting their worst fears. Far from not helping, in that sense, I have to think, "To Catch a Predator" may actually hurt. If terrified reaction, after all, so defines your approach to child-rearing, rather than caring action, I have to think you're doing it wrong. Anyway, sorry for the length. This is, as I said, a subject I have good reason to give a lot of thought to, these days.
Last Edited By: RN Lee
07/24/08 20:48:29.
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RN Lee |
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the pedophiles that are having explicit exchanges with undercover officers Yeah, there's my other big problem with the show: the bait-and-switch conflation of child predation and preying on sexually mature teens. They aren't even remotely the same thing. They don't share the same pathologies or symptoms or results, even. Whatever damage we all might agree is possible to a fourteen-year-old boy or girl in a sexual relationship with an adult who should know better, it's not even close to the undeniable devastation caused by the sexual assault of young children and infants. Frankly, we don't even condemn it as hard as a culture, or Britney Spears would have no audience outside of her fellow teenyboppers. It's incredibly dishonest to target creepy adult men who like jailbait and pretend you're going after child predators, and again, I don't see how it helps anybody. |
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monkeycat |
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a 6th grade Catholic school teacher (surprise!)As a Catholic, I don't appreciate your sarcasm. Troy |
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AdamB |
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monkeycat wrote: So...forgive him? |
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RN Lee |
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So...forgive him? As an atheist, I don't appreciate your appeal to unreason. Since, you know, the finer things in life - like forgiveness - are the sole province of religion. It's what everybody thinks of first, after all, when they think of religion: blind, stinking, filthy compassion and humility. Ugh, I feel dirty just typing those words.
Last Edited By: RN Lee
07/25/08 04:01:29.
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AdamB |
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Oh, I definitely don't think religion is the sole domain for, well, any desirable character trait or anything like that (I'm about as non-religious as
you can get).
I was just riffing off of that Bill Hicks routine, really. You know, the, 'Hey buddy, we're Christian, and we didn't like what you were saying.'. To which Hicks replies, 'So...forgive me.'. |
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RN Lee |
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No, I got it. I was attempting to be funny back. Apparently, I succeeded beyond my wildest dreams.
That article you linked to was hysterical, BTW. |
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AdamB |
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Haha, damn. I flip-flopped between thinking you were joking, and thinking maybe you were accusing me of thinking that only religious people are capable of
forgiveness.
If you mean the Charlie Brooker article in the first post, that wasn't me. |
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RN Lee |
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Oh, sorry. I've been having bouts of serious insomnia, lately, and I was up all night and am a little loopy, right now.
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PaulPuglisi |
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Esquire had a pretty good article on it http://www.esquire.com/features/predator0907?click=main_sr
_____________________
Horror Fiction News Network: The horror fiction news portal | Horror Literature Quarterly |
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JerrodBalzer |
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no one has been rescued from harm, in any sense, and no actual harm has been balanced by justice.So, now that these guys who showed up with a pocket full of toys to introduce to little girls are in prison, no REAL girls that they would have met up with in the future have been rescued from harm? Makes sense. not. You know, there's another thing that hasn't been discussed yet. What about those guys that basically walk the straight and narrow but might get... urges, to flirt around with a young girl and maybe meet up. Watching this show might keep those "urges" in check and they learn to do something else (therapy, perhaps? If nothing else, just stick with porn) instead of acting on it. Just being optimistic, but it could happen. I could see the entrapment argument if they weren't telling these "girls" online all the sexually explicit things they wanted to do to them prior to coming over. I mean, I once met a girl through an online dating thing who had lied about her age. Conversation online was polite and when I picked her up for a dinner and a movie, she admitted that she was 14! Yep, that date didn't last long. But these cases are different. They say their ages and the guys are showing up with all the toys, lubricants, candy, etc that they claimed online to be bringing. The only lie here is the true identity of the minor. All the intentions of the predator are there. Like when an undercover cop poses as a hooker and a john asks for sex in exchange for money. I also think it does help parents because it's no longer just a scary story about the internet. It's not something that only happens somewhere else. It brings the reality of it to their living rooms, and maybe makes them take it more seriously. |
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RN Lee |
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So, now that these guys who showed up with a pocket full of toys to introduce to little girls are in prison, no REAL girls that they would have met up with in the future have been rescued from harm? I'm assuming you're talking about fetuses or something? Because otherwise, it sounds like you're embuing hypothetical persons with souls and legal rights, and I wasn't aware the national insanity level had risen quite that high, yet. I could see the entrapment argument if they weren't telling these "girls" online all the sexually explicit things they wanted to do to them prior to coming over. There's no argument about entrapment, here - the only reason this is...er, "barely legal"...is that Perverted Justice does all the entrapping. If the cops did the same thing, it wouldn't fly. And BTW, even that dodge hasn't always held up. In at least one of the Dateline/PJ stings, the charges were all thrown out, and everybody walked. They didn't put that part of the story on TV. And we haven't even gotten into the future legal problems NBC News is likely to run into because they worked so closely with law enforcement, this way. The potential now exists for their journalists to claim journalistic privilege to protect sources and have that claim shot down because, after all, NBC didn't have any problem sharing everything with the police on these stories. There's a wall between journalists and government for good reason that isn't generally breached this casually. |
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JerrodBalzer |
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I'm assuming you're talking about fetuses or something? Because otherwise, it sounds like you're embuing hypothetical persons with souls and legal rights, and I wasn't aware the national insanity level had risen quite that high, yet.I've no clue what you just said there. If the guys hadn't been caught, you're saying they wouldn't have behaved that way on another chat room the following night... with a real girl? They would have just said, "Well, that took care of a boring Friday night. Now I'll do something different like go play Bingo." If the cops did the same thing, it wouldn't fly.I recall cops catching a preacher in FL that way, and it flew. And just like the show, he had a trunk full of dildos as promised online. |
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