Yuku free message boards

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

I posted this elsewhere, but I wanted a few opinions on it. I know there are a few presses still doing quite well. But I thought this would make for some very stimulating discussion. Is the short story dead? Does the literary form no longer hold any value in today's society? How long until most presses or publications just... poof! wither away?

I came upon this old blog post by chance, which made me ponder a bit (I know, old article): http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/the-short-story-dead-to-me.html

Then I calculated my own ratio. And yes, of course people's reading habits and the recession has a big "to-do". My own acceptance ratio in 2009 is down a staggering 60%. I've had to fill in the tight ends writing non-fiction and by other means.

Anyway, getting back to the subject... Is the short story dead? And if it is, will it ever be resurrected to true form?

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

What are these other means you speak of? Anything dirty?

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

i'm a dirty bird.

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

The short story is alive and well, I think. Small presses come and go based on finances. Lots of good people writing shorts and sending them to magazines and internet sites. Sadly, there's only a few publishing houses that can stay solvent. I don't know too many readers who don't like good, short fiction. Maybe people's reading habits are changing because of the Internet and that might change their habits when it comes to reading stories...period...I'd say that most people on this site get excited about a good short story.

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

They key word there is good. I'll read a good short story any day, but a bad one is another matter.

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

The short story is alive and (reasonably) well.

I fear we make a mistake if we confuse the decline in the magazine market with a true decline in short story readership. I think it's the magazine market that's been hardest hit in the last few years. Back in the days before the 'net, I think magazines helped to shape fandom (at least in SF and Fantasy genres). With reviews, letters to the editor, and information about conventions, they were some of the first virtual communities.

Readers are less interested in magazines now. What are readers more interested in?

1. Podcasts. There are a *number* of short story markets that present stories via podcast. I believe there's still room to massively expand this market (audiobook sales were one of the few areas of the business that actually increased sales in recent years). This is a technology that just wasn't around about five years ago.

2. Anthologies. In the heyday of magazines, we just didn't have the anthology market that we have now. Tachyon can publish an anthology about a niche genre (The New Weird) . There are many, many "year's bests" anthologies. Themed anthologies. Anthologies published by magazine markets. Etc.

The other thing to keep in mind is that magazines -- robbed of their niche as virtual communities -- now bear a striking resemblance to anthologies. The most obvious example of this is Postscripts which recently changed from magazine format to anthology format.

3. Web markets. Chizine. Fantasy Magazine. Strange Horizons. Reflections Edge. There are tons and tons of short fiction magazines online, many of them award-winning and have been around for awhile.

My Recent Posts · (07/09/09

It's just Larry talking about stuff he doesn't know anything about. Typical really.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

VictorVoyles wrote:
It's just Larry talking about stuff he doesn't know anything about. Typical really.

You know what would really be cool, if there was a magazine market which paid 20 cents per word and wasn't invitation only... The first ethical publication which combines.... Ah, nevermind. Sigh. You're right, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Nicole: Reflection's Edge might be on permanent hiatus... I've sent them two stories in the last 24 months. No word. No nada. Also, according to Ralan, Postscripts has been closed to submissions for a few years.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

P.S. I wrote a short story once a bout this very topic called "The Death of Short Story," about Short Story's funeral.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

This is one of my favorite classics..

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

markgunnells wrote:
As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words.

You realize that your first two sentences and last three sentences are stark contradictions, even down to the emotions.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

Lawrence Dagstine wrote:
You know what would really be cool, if there was a magazine market which paid 20 cents per word and wasn't invitation only... The first ethical publication

Do you mean paying 20 cents per word and being invite only is unethical? Could you explain please? Seems to me that a publication putting out that kind of dough can get their stories however they want. Actually, any publication has that right. It's not like they're charging reading fees or something.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

Lawrence Dagstine wrote:

Nicole: Reflection's Edge might be on permanent hiatus... I've sent them two stories in the last 24 months. No word. No nada.

As of May they were still accepting stories.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

I don't think that the short story is dead, the magazine market is a separate entity to the literary form. Just through places like Ralan and Duotrope I can find places for my short stories. A group of fellow horror writers and myself were asked once to try and come up with a top 10 classics and top 10 contemporary list of books that we thought people not used to reading should read to understand the genre. And it surprised use how much we had story collections than novels in both sections. What I think is a little perturbing is how few publishers are willing to buy a collection of stories. I think if there were more out there, it would give readers, new and old, more exposer to the form.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

Give or take a couple, there are approximately the same number of professional markets, and semi-pro, today as there were 10 years ago when I started writing, and even further back, when I was reading. What I see as the big difference is in the number of people submitting. Markets are getting flooded faster today, and staying closed to new submissions longer, than I remember back a decade ago. If I'm wrong about this, please someone correct me. I haven't done a specific comparison.

For people who don't care to write for, or read, those upper tier markets, there are probably more penny-paying markets today than ever.

My Recent Posts · (07/10/09

The last twelve months have been my best ever for short story sales (including reprints). Of course many of those were to invite-only books, but... no, I don't think the short story market is dead at all!

My Recent Posts · (07/11/09

(On the subject of wishful thinking) if you could eliiminate all the little computer gizmos that kids find more entertaining than books, perhaps the Mags would be more successful.

My Recent Posts · (07/11/09

Not at all. The first two sentences are the standard way of things, and the end clearly stays this particular publisher went against what he normally does and makes an exception. I'm thrilled he made an exception but depressed that most publishers won't do this.

PG wrote:

markgunnells wrote:
As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words.
You realize that your first two sentences and last three sentences are stark contradictions, even down to the emotions.

My Recent Posts · (07/11/09

Jeez, there are some twats on Shocklines, aren't there?

My Recent Posts · (07/11/09

It seems to me whenever someone brings up questions, they are personally attacked. If nit-picking is what this forum is about, no wonder people leave. As for Lawrence's original post, the market is always dying and rebirthing. There might be fewer short story markets, but they come and go. And for Mark's comments on finding a home for his short stories, it was fairly evident what he was saying. The markets are fewer and not many are taking collections, but he lucked out, and found someone. Doesn't take a genius to read that.

Author	Comment
Lawrence Dagstine	The Death of the Short Story	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2935 (07/09/09 14:39:50) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I posted this elsewhere, but I wanted a few opinions on it. I know there are a few presses still doing quite well. But I thought this would make for some very stimulating discussion. Is the short story dead? Does the literary form no longer hold any value in today's society? How long until most presses or publications just... poof! wither away? I came upon this old blog post by chance, which made me ponder a bit (I know, old article): http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/the-short-story-dead-to-me.html Then I calculated my own ratio. And yes, of course people's reading habits and the recession has a big "to-do". My own acceptance ratio in 2009 is down a staggering 60%. I've had to fill in the tight ends writing non-fiction and by other means. Anyway, getting back to the subject... Is the short story dead? And if it is, will it ever be resurrected to true form? Lawrence Dagstine Homepage: www.lawrencedagstine.com Order FRESH BLOOD: http://www.genremall.com/anthologiesr.htm#freshblood
Gary Mc		#1	[-]
Posts: 2653 (07/09/09 15:19:14) Shocklineraholic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What are these other means you speak of? Anything dirty? How To Make Monsters by Gary McMahon www.garymcmahon.com
njhorror		#2	[-]
Posts: 4683 (07/09/09 15:28:45) Shocklineraholic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i'm a dirty bird. Yes . . . I really am a Democrat.
NoahCopley		#3	[-]
Posts: 30 (07/09/09 15:57:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The short story is alive and well, I think. Small presses come and go based on finances. Lots of good people writing shorts and sending them to magazines and internet sites. Sadly, there's only a few publishing houses that can stay solvent. I don't know too many readers who don't like good, short fiction. Maybe people's reading habits are changing because of the Internet and that might change their habits when it comes to reading stories...period...I'd say that most people on this site get excited about a good short story.
Morikawa		#4	[-]
Posts: 30 (07/09/09 18:28:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	They key word there is good. I'll read a good short story any day, but a bad one is another matter. The natives are getting restless.
NicoleCushing		#5	[-]
Posts: 73 (07/09/09 18:39:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The short story is alive and (reasonably) well. I fear we make a mistake if we confuse the decline in the magazine market with a true decline in short story readership. I think it's the magazine market that's been hardest hit in the last few years. Back in the days before the 'net, I think magazines helped to shape fandom (at least in SF and Fantasy genres). With reviews, letters to the editor, and information about conventions, they were some of the first virtual communities. Readers are less interested in magazines now. What are readers more interested in? 1. Podcasts. There are a number of short story markets that present stories via podcast. I believe there's still room to massively expand this market (audiobook sales were one of the few areas of the business that actually increased sales in recent years). This is a technology that just wasn't around about five years ago. 2. Anthologies. In the heyday of magazines, we just didn't have the anthology market that we have now. Tachyon can publish an anthology about a niche genre (The New Weird) . There are many, many "year's bests" anthologies. Themed anthologies. Anthologies published by magazine markets. Etc. The other thing to keep in mind is that magazines -- robbed of their niche as virtual communities -- now bear a striking resemblance to anthologies. The most obvious example of this is Postscripts which recently changed from magazine format to anthology format. 3. Web markets. Chizine. Fantasy Magazine. Strange Horizons. Reflections Edge. There are tons and tons of short fiction magazines online, many of them award-winning and have been around for awhile.
VictorVoyles		#6	[-]
Posts: 1277 (07/09/09 18:45:22) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's just Larry talking about stuff he doesn't know anything about. Typical really.
Lawrence Dagstine		#7	[-]
Posts: 2936 (07/10/09 02:31:58) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	VictorVoyles wrote: It's just Larry talking about stuff he doesn't know anything about. Typical really. You know what would really be cool, if there was a magazine market which paid 20 cents per word and wasn't invitation only... The first ethical publication which combines.... Ah, nevermind. Sigh. You're right, I don't know what I'm talking about. Nicole: Reflection's Edge might be on permanent hiatus... I've sent them two stories in the last 24 months. No word. No nada. Also, according to Ralan, Postscripts has been closed to submissions for a few years. Lawrence Dagstine Homepage: www.lawrencedagstine.com Order FRESH BLOOD: http://www.genremall.com/anthologiesr.htm#freshblood Last Edited By: Lawrence Dagstine 07/10/09 02:36:00. Edited 1 times.
markgunnells		#8	[-]
Posts: 26 (07/10/09 02:48:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words.
markgunnells		#9	[-]
Posts: 27 (07/10/09 02:49:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	P.S. I wrote a short story once a bout this very topic called "The Death of Short Story," about Short Story's funeral.
Lawrence Dagstine		#10	[-]
Posts: 2938 (07/10/09 02:55:44) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is one of my favorite classics.. Lawrence Dagstine Homepage: www.lawrencedagstine.com Order FRESH BLOOD: http://www.genremall.com/anthologiesr.htm#freshblood
PG		#11	[-]
Posts: 2240 (07/10/09 03:14:49) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	markgunnells wrote: As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words. You realize that your first two sentences and last three sentences are stark contradictions, even down to the emotions.
Nate Southard		#12	[-]
Posts: 448 (07/10/09 03:37:02) Apprentice Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Lawrence Dagstine wrote: You know what would really be cool, if there was a magazine market which paid 20 cents per word and wasn't invitation only... The first ethical publication Do you mean paying 20 cents per word and being invite only is unethical? Could you explain please? Seems to me that a publication putting out that kind of dough can get their stories however they want. Actually, any publication has that right. It's not like they're charging reading fees or something. Nate Southard
NicoleCushing		#13	[-]
Posts: 75 (07/10/09 04:03:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Lawrence Dagstine wrote: Nicole: Reflection's Edge might be on permanent hiatus... I've sent them two stories in the last 24 months. No word. No nada. As of May they were still accepting stories.
wdprescott		#14	[-]
Posts: 20 (07/10/09 04:53:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I don't think that the short story is dead, the magazine market is a separate entity to the literary form. Just through places like Ralan and Duotrope I can find places for my short stories. A group of fellow horror writers and myself were asked once to try and come up with a top 10 classics and top 10 contemporary list of books that we thought people not used to reading should read to understand the genre. And it surprised use how much we had story collections than novels in both sections. What I think is a little perturbing is how few publishers are willing to buy a collection of stories. I think if there were more out there, it would give readers, new and old, more exposer to the form. W. D. Prescott http://wdprescott.wordpress.com/
gfaherty		#15	[-]
Posts: 4228 (07/10/09 06:03:54) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Give or take a couple, there are approximately the same number of professional markets, and semi-pro, today as there were 10 years ago when I started writing, and even further back, when I was reading. What I see as the big difference is in the number of people submitting. Markets are getting flooded faster today, and staying closed to new submissions longer, than I remember back a decade ago. If I'm wrong about this, please someone correct me. I haven't done a specific comparison. For people who don't care to write for, or read, those upper tier markets, there are probably more penny-paying markets today than ever. JG Faherty www.jgfaherty.com 'Everyone has a monster inside.' "Bones," in Cemetery Dance #58 (available now) "The Toll" and "Hybrids" in Wrong World, www.wrongworld.com (available now) "Experimental Subject," in Bits of the Dead "Family First," in Dark Territories
Lisa Morton		#16	[-]
Posts: 1333 (07/10/09 07:47:20) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The last twelve months have been my best ever for short story sales (including reprints). Of course many of those were to invite-only books, but... no, I don't think the short story market is dead at all!
Frank Menser		#17	[-]
Posts: 1183 (07/11/09 04:47:29) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	(On the subject of wishful thinking) if you could eliiminate all the little computer gizmos that kids find more entertaining than books, perhaps the Mags would be more successful. Four fingers are never quite enough...
markgunnells		#18	[-]
Posts: 28 (07/11/09 10:02:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Not at all. The first two sentences are the standard way of things, and the end clearly stays this particular publisher went against what he normally does and makes an exception. I'm thrilled he made an exception but depressed that most publishers won't do this. PG wrote: markgunnells wrote: As a writer who prefers the short form, I do find less and less markets every year, and publishers won't even think about doing a short story collection unless you're already an established "name." It's kind of depressing for me. But there is hope, I just talked to a publisher who plans to do a short novel and fulfill my dream of a full-fledged short story collection. Although the publisher admitted he never had any intention of doing a collection because no one buys them but he made an exception fo rme. I am thrilled beyond words. You realize that your first two sentences and last three sentences are stark contradictions, even down to the emotions.
Stephen Bacon		#19	[-]
Posts: 1154 (07/11/09 12:05:13) Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jeez, there are some twats on Shocklines, aren't there? www.stephenbacon.co.uk
Douglas E Wright		#20	[-]
Posts: 370 (07/11/09 13:40:02) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It seems to me whenever someone brings up questions, they are personally attacked. If nit-picking is what this forum is about, no wonder people leave. As for Lawrence's original post, the market is always dying and rebirthing. There might be fewer short story markets, but they come and go. And for Mark's comments on finding a home for his short stories, it was fairly evident what he was saying. The markets are fewer and not many are taking collections, but he lucked out, and found someone. Doesn't take a genius to read that.

Yuku free message boards

The Death of the Short Story

The Death of the Short Story

Quick Reply