Lovecraft, Racism, & the "Man of His Time" Defense in General Discussion Forum

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Lovecraft, Racism, & the "Man of His Time" Defense

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khkoehler		#41	[-]
Posts: 2361 Jun 26 12 7:19 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm not sure if HP should be considered "more prejudice" than other writers of his time. I think he may have just been more open about an opinion that most men of his era held anyway. We know that he suffered from xenophobia, so that may have fed the fire of his prejudice--or, at least, made him obsess over it while other men like himself simply looked at minority groups as "one step below the white man," shrugged kind of noncommittally, and walked away. In a way, he's almost like the American Bran Stoker. Stoker was accused of writing very "erotic" literature for his time, but in fact, he was basically just pointing out that the high-class men of Victorian London were keeping secret libraries of erotic literature, and isn't that a hilarious double-standard? Not that HP was deliberately looking for hypocrisy, but he may he felt it was all right to point out the obvious. K. H. Koehler KHP Books
JerrodBalzer		#42	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 26 12 11:27 AM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	NicoleCushing wrote: BTW, in this message board thread I find myself repeating a lot of the points I make in the original blog post on the topic -- the one I linked to at the beginning of the thread. People are reading the blog post before commenting, right? Or is that wishful thinking? Wishful thinking, for the most part. Back in Shocklines' heyday, it was a common pet peeve when folks would come in, link to their blog as if to say, "You must click and read my latest blog now and discuss," and expect everyone to do so like obedient little school children. If you can't be bothered to make your point in a thread post, why should we bother? (unless you're looking for blog hits, which is a more obvious reason). And of course, this is also a subject that has been discussed for... friggin' years and we all have our opinions on it. It's the kind of subject where we can have differing opinions and none of us are really all that wrong. And yet, if we don't sing your praises because you wrote all those long, wordy paragraphs about it and agree with you 100%, you'll continue to talk down to us and pound it in until we think like you. Sorry, but that's not going to happen. jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
Ramsey Campbell		#43	[-]
Posts: 466 Jun 26 12 1:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I don't think Nicole is talking down to anyone. I think she's making specific points and taking time to back them up, and her blog is worth reading.
JerrodBalzer		#44	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 26 12 1:48 PM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The part I quoted, imo, is nothing BUT talking down to everyone. I read it as, "No one seems to agree with my points despite my repetition so it must be because you're all too stupid to read my blog and thus educating yourselves well enough to discuss this properly." Or in "earnest" as she put it earlier. But of course, I figure she assumes we ARE too stupid because it's all just wishful thinking. jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
WatersDan		#45	[-]
Posts: 603 Jun 26 12 5:57 PM Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You know what totally sucks? Being very excited to read to your young children from the vintage Hugh Lofting book that you found at a yard sale, because you are a writer now, and part of the reason you became a writer is because you fell in love with reading at an early age, and part of the reason you fell in love with reading was those Hugh Lofting Dr. Dolitte books that you checked out from the library and read in quick success one lonely autumn. But then you start to read the vintage Hugh Lofting book to your kids, and you are about ten pages in and you realize that this book that you loved and that shaped you as a child has some of the most racist prose you've ever read, racist prose that you totally don't remember having read as a child, and so you end up having to make up huge sections of the story as you go along to replace all of the racist stuff that you would prefer not to read to your five year old. Although in retrospect it was kind of fun making up parts of the story on the fly. It is kind of weird that the Wikipedia entries on Hugh Lofting and Dr. Dolittle don't mention this aspect of the original books... Our relationship to art and artists can change over time; an artists' feelings about his or her own work can change over time. Personalities and worldviews change over time as well. Every book you'll write will change you at least a little bit--most hopefully for the better. A very interesting blog and discussion, thanks for posting. www.danielwaters.com www.mysocalledundeath.com www.gendead.com
JerrodBalzer		#46	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 26 12 7:15 PM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Now, there's an excellent point, Dan! Well said! It's like reading and loving Wizard of Oz as a child, then someone points out all the hidden political imagery years later, and you're like, huh?? And if you go back and reread it, it takes on an entirely new context. I can recall, in my late teens, reading some Lovecraft and thinking I'm just enjoying some tales of horrible monsters rising out of the sea. It wasn't until several years later that someone told me it symbolized the impact of immigration on New England, etc. To be honest, it took some of the magic out of it for me, though it was an interesting new perspective. jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
Ed Dempster		#47	[-]
Posts: 73 Jun 26 12 11:57 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TBH, I'm struggling to see the point in raking Lovecraft over the coals. Being a man of his time is no defence of his views, but that's how it used to be. People are generally more enlightened now because of education. At the time there was still some sympathy for concepts like eugenics. The holocaust changed that for most people. At the time when Lovecraft was growing up it was the age of empire, and racism was one of the many underhand tools used by governments and individuals to subjugate the working classes. It was not an unusual point of view. Not an enlightened point of view either, but like it or not we are mostly a product of our times and of our upbringing in those times, politics, social pressures, etc. Morality flip flops through the ages, the goalposts move. I bet you could take pretty much any famous person from a bygone age and mark them as a racist, anti gay, anti semitic, misogynist, paedophile, whatever. So what? It is what it is. We see things differently these days, and even if these people could see the error of their ways right now, they are not in a position to go back and re-write history. We can still admire what is good about a person and abhor what is not. ----- Ed Dempster
Shadowtron		#48	[-]
Posts: 902 Jun 27 12 5:20 AM Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Shrews wrote: About the only thing similiar with Lovecraft and Pacione's writing is they use the same alphabet. That's debatable, Shrews. :P
khkoehler		#49	[-]
Posts: 2361 Jun 27 12 6:33 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Shadowtron wrote: Shrews wrote: About the only thing similiar with Lovecraft and Pacione's writing is they use the same alphabet. That's debatable, Shrews. :P And Howard just did one full rotation in his grave. K. H. Koehler KHP Books
sighlon		#50	[-]
Posts: 1653 Jun 27 12 12:03 PM Apprentice Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	khkoehler wrote: Actually, Lovecraft's prose was technically cumbersome, awkward, and at times unreadable, so I'd count his semi-competent skills as a writer among his more important flaws. Amen to this.
dogpoet		#51	[-]
Posts: 7694 Jun 27 12 12:49 PM Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm dubious about that one, but then the post I made on that already has been ignored, so it makes no odds. Please buy my book, somebody?
JerrodBalzer		#52	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 27 12 1:07 PM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
khkoehler		#53	[-]
Posts: 2361 Jun 27 12 1:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I see the gloves are coming off in this thread now. K. H. Koehler KHP Books
JerrodBalzer		#54	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 27 12 1:16 PM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
JerrodBalzer		#55	[-]
Posts: 5622 Jun 27 12 1:18 PM Keeper of Tootsie Pops Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	jerrodbalzer.com KHP Books
khkoehler		#56	[-]
Posts: 2361 Jun 27 12 1:24 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Which proves my point. The obvious end result of Lovecraftian literature is hentai. K. H. Koehler KHP Books
dogpoet		#57	[-]
Posts: 7694 Jun 27 12 1:39 PM Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Right. Just like the obvious end result of Dickens is child porn. Please buy my book, somebody?
Shrews		#58	[-]
Posts: 3422 Jun 27 12 3:05 PM Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What some 'writers' do to letters is akin to S&M.
khkoehler		#59	[-]
Posts: 2361 Jun 27 12 4:28 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That Oliver Twist was kinky! K. H. Koehler KHP Books
dogpoet		#60	[-]
Posts: 7694 Jun 28 12 3:33 AM Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Shrews wrote: What some 'writers' do to letters is akin to S&M. S&M is consensual, though: there's a lot of prose in print that's more akin to an abusive relationship with the word. (I shudder to think of the state Dan Brown has beaten his muse into, put it that way...) Please buy my book, somebody?

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Lovecraft, Racism, & the "Man of His Time" Defense