What happened to the Art of Writing?

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Frank Menser	What happened to the Art of Writing?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 899 (12/06/08 15:30:06) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I edited this because I feel the subject is one that should be discussed--especially in the SWG and is important to serious writers; yet not a single writer has commented so far. So what about the Art of Writing? The other night I was watching BOSTON LEGAL which happens to be my favorite show. To set the scene for those who might not be familiar, Alan Shore the attorney was arguing in front of the judge about the quality of TV. His argument was that people are so busy multitasking while the TV is on that they only half pay attention to what is actually happening on the screen. Also that writers (knowing this) have dumbed down most of the shows because, "nobody is really paying attention anyway". I think this also applies to our own end of the craft. I have always felt that words are the colors of a pallet we writers use to paint our fiction; that the words are as important as the plot in delivering the feeling of a tale and the satisfaction in reading it. I love plot twists and misdirection, all the surprises and description that make for unique flavors in my reading. Are we in too much of a hurry, too afraid to be different, or have we lost the appreciation for spending time to allow a story to develop in our need to get to the end of it? Do we as writers become just reporters? What has happened to the art of story-telling? I see so many stories that are pretty standard in their style and presentation. What ever happened to writers challenging themselves and trying new directions? Are we just playing it safe to fit a market that IMO has gone stale in part because of the cookie-cutter pablum that is considered saleable? I find it interesting that the top selling author of today, J. K. Rowlings has been criticised by the standard bearers of today's Minimalist Style as being the Adjective Queen, yet none sell anything near her level. people rush to read her "wordy" writing. What of that? Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME. Last Edited By: Frank Menser 12/09/08 06:25:45. Edited 1 time.
Spookyhands		#1	[-]
Posts: 275 (12/09/08 11:24:08) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'll agree that writers need to try many different directions and not fill their repertoir with nothing but spooky stories. Or any other genre. A writer should not limit themselves. But I also see several writers with genuinely bad writing who complain that "the markets aren't smart enough," or "my stuff isn't bad, it's just too smart for all those Phillistines out there!" or "I'm not a bad writer, I'm just misunderstood." Sometimes bad is just bad. Rowling is great. Why? Because people want to read that woman's stories. I don't care who bitches about her style, her prose, her whatever, because results speak for themselves. People bitch about Stephen King just the same, they say he writes bad fiction. But you can't deny that 879823748923489124 copies sold during his lifetime says something about his storytelling. The man writes stories people want to read. I guess that's what it boils down to. Do people want to read your stories. I don't really believe that people have dumbed down much, really. I don't think we're lazy. Do you feel that way? Whether it's tv or books, a story is a story. Even if it's American Idol. People will listen and watch something that they feel is interesting. They'll gather in blogs and water coolers and discuss what happened on Lost. They'll share anecdotes about last night's Family Guy. People can be stupid, but they know a good story when they hear one. Assistant Editor - Out of the Gutter Magazine (www.outoftheguttermagazine.com) Work can be found in: Thug Lit Diabolic Tales 1: An Anthology of Dark Minds Out of the Gutter Magazine #2
Frank Menser		#2	[-]
Posts: 902 (12/09/08 11:59:38) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am inclined to think that it isn't that people are "stupid" and I'm not saying that. But between what I have stated here and the observations in my wife's college classes (it is Hell when any of her students are asked to come up with an original thought) or just being out there and listening to people it shows a definite trend. Deep thinking takes time to reflect. In our faster paced society it seems fewer people take that time and this has a definite impact on what they chose for recreation. Less time and more attractive forms of gratification like computer video games and Movies have made the printed word more boring...and also slower to assimilate. I speculate that Literature suffers from this. Even the movies frequently show more effects, less acting, simpler plots. TV has degenerated into a "reality" wasteland. People will always read what they want to read. But like David E. Kelly suggested, I think the bar has been lowered. Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME.
Nickolas Cook		#3	[-]
Posts: 8021 (12/09/08 13:09:08) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	90% of everything is crap. Doesn't mean no one will find that 90% entertaining. I say write what pleases you, man. Cause you sure as hell can't please everyone, can you? I do, however find it disconcerting that so few 'horror writers' or at least the wannabes we see here quite regularly, don't know shite from shinola about the classics of the genre, and have a tendacy to gravitate to the 90%. Nickolas Cook Moderator:Shocklines Writers Group MySpace MyBlog
Spookyhands		#4	[-]
Posts: 277 (12/09/08 14:42:44) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Nickolas Cook wrote: 90% of everything is crap. Doesn't mean no one will find that 90% entertaining. I say write what pleases you, man. Cause you sure as hell can't please everyone, can you? I do, however find it disconcerting that so few 'horror writers' or at least the wannabes we see here quite regularly, don't know shite from shinola about the classics of the genre, and have a tendacy to gravitate to the 90%. Well, what's crap? I say that if it's entertaining, it's gold. And each and every one of us is the best critic for that. I personally love Joe R. Lansdale's work. Someone else might say that he's a racist sonofabitch that can't write a proper sentence to save his life. It's all subjective. I'm reading the next section of your story, by the way, Nick. Stop distracting me. Assistant Editor - Out of the Gutter Magazine (www.outoftheguttermagazine.com) Work can be found in: Thug Lit Diabolic Tales 1: An Anthology of Dark Minds Out of the Gutter Magazine #2
Spookyhands		#5	[-]
Posts: 278 (12/09/08 14:44:47) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Frank Menser wrote: I speculate that Literature suffers from this. Even the movies frequently show more effects, less acting, simpler plots. -- People will always read what they want to read. But like David E. Kelly suggested, I think the bar has been lowered. Give me some examples. I like this thread Assistant Editor - Out of the Gutter Magazine (www.outoftheguttermagazine.com) Work can be found in: Thug Lit Diabolic Tales 1: An Anthology of Dark Minds Out of the Gutter Magazine #2
Frank Menser		#6	[-]
Posts: 903 (12/09/08 15:16:24) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Shall we start with VAN HELSING? or let's go for the Tomb Raider or other Video games gone Hollywood. Personal prejudice: Cartoons. I watched them as a child. as an adult I want to see the actors-not crude animated drawings (and yes I can draw better cartoons than THE SIMPSONS. Note my avitar). Nick, One thing I love about your writing is the unusual words that you find and use. You are not afraid to take chances which is cool. Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME. Last Edited By: Frank Menser 12/09/08 15:22:33. Edited 1 times.
Spookyhands		#7	[-]
Posts: 279 (12/09/08 16:28:32) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Agreed. But someone out there absolutely loves those movies for what they are. What's crap to one is gold to another. So is the world really lowering the standard? Can you really draw a line between what's good/bad highbrow/lowbrow? You can't. Also, I'll give you that -- Nick's got funny words. Assistant Editor - Out of the Gutter Magazine (www.outoftheguttermagazine.com) Work can be found in: Thug Lit Diabolic Tales 1: An Anthology of Dark Minds Out of the Gutter Magazine #2
Frank Menser		#8	[-]
Posts: 905 (12/09/08 16:53:20) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I can try to answer that. Highbrow used to mean PBS. Today I include a wider field which includes anything (IMHO) that which makes you think beyond the mere substance of the story-example; the writing of David E. Kelly, the wit of Robin Williams. Lowbrow is for the moment and not much else-example; your average reality show, or on the plus side, Screwball Comedy. Both types can be good or bad depending on taste. For something as subjective as Good or Bad, that methinks, is Strictly an individual choice. The context of Kelly's comments on LEGAL were that few shows were on that appeal to the audience over 55. I fall into that group and I do lament the fact that there are fewer and fewer shows that appeal to me and my contemporaries. I also belong to the pre-computer generation and that of the birth of TV. we paid $0.25 each Saturday to catch the matinee. The TV was 4 channels and on at night only so reading books occupied a more important part of my life (fewer choices). Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME.
Spookyhands		#9	[-]
Posts: 280 (12/09/08 17:19:33) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Frank Menser wrote: The context of Kelly's comments on LEGAL were that few shows were on that appeal to the audience over 55. I fall into that group and I do lament the fact that there are fewer and fewer shows that appeal to me and my contemporaries. I also belong to the pre-computer generation and that of the birth of TV. we paid $0.25 each Saturday to catch the matinee. The TV was 4 channels and on at night only so reading books occupied a more important part of my life (fewer choices). I can see where you're coming from now. I'm a child of the 80's and 90's myself. I see how a lot has changed, but personally I think it's for the better since that era. Assistant Editor - Out of the Gutter Magazine (www.outoftheguttermagazine.com) Work can be found in: Thug Lit Diabolic Tales 1: An Anthology of Dark Minds Out of the Gutter Magazine #2
Frank Menser		#10	[-]
Posts: 906 (12/09/08 18:14:48) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Being a child of the 50's and 60's I have lived through some very dramatic changes. I think we lost quite a bit since then and not all we have gained is for the good. Frankly, I think the writing and acting were better then because there was less help from the "special effects." I also prefer the Golden Age authors who really knew how to turn a phrase. from REH to Bradbury, Simak to Asimov...etc. That was writing IMO. Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME.
Frank Menser		#11	[-]
Posts: 908 (12/10/08 16:27:53) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	One thing I would like to see here in the SWG is frankly, a move away from the preponderance of stories set in modern times with youthful street talking characters. I would love to see stories that challenge the established formula of how things should be written. The SWG should be about imagination. Break ground here. This is a non paying free critiquing opportunity here. Use it to grow and experiment. OK, some look at this as only a business and the market from what I have seen seems a bit rigid on what it asks for, But I have long held that the market is as it is because the people who buy tend to be conservative. And while I understand the bottom line dictates much, it also by its very nature shrinks what is bought into a formula that becomes stale. The inevitable result is an eventual cookie cutter pattern that all markets are afraid to deviate from. The argument that "if people like it it will sell" is BOGUS. The readership only sees what the editors and publishers buy so if you don't get anything past them the readership doesn't see it at all. There has been broad (and in many cases correct) condemnation of self publishing because a lot of wannabes do it; but the other side of the coin is that it is about the only way to get new ideas into the public eye, short of giving it away--if ever so slightly. I have always looked at Writing as an art form. Horror and Fantasy are perhaps the freest forms to express the imagination. As I said in my first post, words are paint on a pallet to be applied in different and exciting ways to tell our tales. Why limit the colors you use...or the "brush strokes" of their application? Trashed Cat Publications: trashedcatpubs.com Home of;THE BARD BUSINESS, ORPHANED EPICS & SIDEWAYS THRU TIME. Last Edited By: Frank Menser 12/10/08 16:57:43. Edited 2 times.
Nickolas Cook		#12	[-]
Posts: 8023 (12/11/08 20:38:56) Top-Tier Shockliner Demon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Crap is crap. And that's fine with me if millions of people like it. But, hell, millions of people eat McDonald's cheeseburgers, but that don't make them good for you. I look at a lot of modern writing, especially in the small press world right now, as a big dumpload of MickeyD's cheeseburgers: some of them might even taste great, but they aren't helping you. The editing in a lot of them is just atrocious; the writing subpar; and style pretty much non-existent. It's as if everyone under 30 is writing videogame stories, or just mimicking other stories they saw on movies. That I don't mind as much as the shitty editing jobs. That's what is making us dumber. If we don't watch the line on editing, then we're passing along a shit load of bad technique and writing wisdom to the younger generation. They think it's perfectly okay and won't know until it's too late to correct it. So I say to editors: do your job...edit. And I say to small press writers: do your job and edit so you don't have to wait for someone who is even less qualified than you to edit it for you. That's just plain stupid. But the bottom line is that no matter how much we try to control the direction of modern horror fiction, and try to weed out what we think of as its vagaries and weaknesses, it will do what it wants to do...like water it will find its own level. Thousands will buy the 90% of crap but that doesn't make it one whit better in terms of beauty and elegance. Writing has room for all of it, though, and not everything can be a filet mignon. Sometimes the cheeseburger is just what you needed. I just fear that too many people are getting the taste for shitty cheeseburgers and forgetting the filets out there-- the writing that will stand the test of time and further the genre. There's been a scant handful of small press writers in the last two years that have made any seeming effort to further the genre with something unique. The rest seem to me to be in it to see their name on a book cover. Nickolas Cook Moderator:Shocklines Writers Group MySpace MyBlog
Lawrence Dagstine		#13	[-]
Posts: 2644 (05/14/09 20:44:51) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	To be honest, I've always preferred Wendy's cheeseburgers over McDonalds cheeseburgers. Lawrence Dagstine Homepage: www.lawrencedagstine.com Order FRESH BLOOD: http://www.genremall.com/anthologiesr.htm#freshblood
Gabriel Novo		#14	[-]
Posts: 2 (06/29/09 11:38:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree that the quality of writing overall (movies, tv, books) has decreased significantly. Using movies as an example, they've really suffered from pandering to the lowest common denominator. People vote with their pocketbooks and sadly movies pushing the boundaries are not being supported. Memento, a fantastic film that creatively changed how a narrative could unfold, only made 39.7 million worldwide (according to www.boxofficemojo.com). When I sat in the theater people loudly complained about being confused or were upset that ALL the answers weren't conveniently spoon fed to them. I can say the same of The Fountain (15.9 million worldwide) which took a beautifully layered approach to telling a love story. Darren Aronofsky wove many elements together in a nonstandard fashion that was meant to invoke discussion and further contemplation, but because of this failed spectacularly with the movie going public. Hell, something as simple as two movies back to back (Rodriguez/Tarantino's Grindhouse 25 million worldwide) was too much for people to understand. A surprising number of folks left the theater after the first film wondering loudly why Tarantino would do a zombie film (I wanted to punch those people). If it square peg doesn't fit in the hole, the public doesn't bother looking at the other holes. Sometimes I think they don't even want to grab the peg, instead content to watch someone else do it for them. I understand that movies are a form of escapism and for many people that includes escaping the need to think, but it sometimes feels like the entire experience is going to degenerate into pretty colors with loud noises. I shudder to think what books will devolve into. Cuban Nomad - Computer Nerd by Day, Writer by Night Follow me on Twitter
Frank Menser		#15	[-]
Posts: 1186 (07/12/09 11:50:49) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well said... Four fingers are never quite enough...
markgunnells		#16	[-]
Posts: 38 (07/18/09 06:57:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree that a lot of what I see succeeding (books and movies) I consider to be subpar and genuinely intelligent and interesting stories fall by the wayside. But I also keep in mind everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it. There's nothing to suggest my opinion is more valid than someone else's. It is more valid for me, but it doesn't matter how much education or experience I may or may not have, it doesn't make the other person's opinion any less valid for them? I love to debate, I love to give my reasons why I love or didn't love something and hearing other opinions on why people felt differently than me. However, I always try to make it clear by opinions are just that, opinions, and I never judge someone harshly because they like something I don't or didn't like something I did. That leads into a whole superiority thing that I don't get into. Just my personal take on it.
Douglas E Wright		#17	[-]
Posts: 382 (07/19/09 07:47:05) Veteran Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I too am from an era of 25 cent movies and black and white TV. I have a hard time reading many of the books that are recommended to me today. As for TV, I haven't had cable or a dish for close to 10 years. I read and write and imagine. For my writing, I have been told I am wordy, but then I'm told it's classic. I've heard that I have too many layers in my short stories and then I hear I am distinct. (In a good way) I've been told my stories touch on humanity and then someone will complain I have too much going on that they can't keep up. It's all about taste. There are many times I fret that I am too old fashioned and need to jettison the backgrounds, etc, of my characters and writing in their here and now only. This is something I have noticed with the younger crowd and it seems everyone loves their stories. So, I am trying my hand at that type of short tale. Anyway, yes, everything changes and we as writers have to keep up with the times, just don't completely leave your style behind.
Frank Menser		#18	[-]
Posts: 1210 (07/27/09 04:15:32) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Personally I think the whole concept of "it's a matter of taste and all tastes being equal" is Nonsense. Back in the day, a lot of the garbage that is so often praised now would not have made it past a decent editor. Good taste is a matter of education which is sadly slipping in our school (American) system. When I was in school they took the time - for example - to play classical music. They thought it was important to expose us to the arts and literature. So we experienced these things that, odds were, we would never have gotten to know at home. It gave us a background that allowed us to decide (from experience) what we liked and didn't. AND THAT'S THE POINT. You actually sat down and listened instead of it just being something you heard a snatch of on an elevator, when you were looking for the right channel on the radio. You may still end up hating it, but at least you knew what you were talking about. The same with Lit. If all you know is Stephen King, how can you form an opinion on the rest? Attitudes and tastes are formed pretty early in life and it is not easy to change an opinion when it has become habit. I think this is where our educational system is failing us the most. How can a kid raised on RAP, sound amplified voices, videos and street values appreciate classical music? How can kids who have never read a variety of literature make a good judgement about reading material? Four fingers are never quite enough... Last Edited By: Frank Menser 07/27/09 06:17:48. Edited 1 times.
markgunnells		#19	[-]
Posts: 79 (07/29/09 01:11:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have no issue with tr ying to expose people to other writers and works, but what I do have an issue is actually insulting someone over what they like. The whole attitude I've seen some take on where they basically say, "I'm smarter than you because I read this and you only read that"...I'm not down with that.
Frank Menser		#20	[-]
Posts: 1211 (07/29/09 10:15:43) Master Shockliner Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Y'know I saw this too many times when I was in school. Yeah there were some "smart kids" who waved their intellectual superiority like a flag. However, all to often I saw some poor kid who made the mistake of answering too many questions correctly, or participating in the class simply out of the joy of learning - get bullied by those who interpreted (his/hers) interest in the class as being (snobbish). In my house speaking "Proper English" (no slang) was the rule. I caught Hell in school because my classmates thought I talked funny. Even at work I was labeled "The Professor" till I adapted my speech to fit that of my peers. The sad fact is some people have higher IQ's than others, but we all have Egos that sometimes get kind of sensitive. It's kind of tricky when you know something that changes the perspective of something, and you try to explain this to someone who doesn't have that knowledge. It is very easy to cause resentment when there was no foul intended. It may not be superiority that is going on but rather the desire to share that knowledge. Four fingers are never quite enough...

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